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North China Type 19? (Chinese Type 30 Copy)
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Catch22



Joined: Oct 12 2014
Posts: 9
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:51 am    Post subject: North China Type 19? (Chinese Type 30 Copy) Reply with quote

I have recently procured what I believe to be a North China Type 19 carbine, or perhaps some kind of variant.

I have found very little information regarding these rifles while trying to research it. Having found this site, I thought I might give it a try.

I've found the data sheet linked to the site, but I don't see anywhere to reference the data on the sheet or what to do with the the info on it.

Any help would be great.
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Francis C. Allan



Joined: Oct 04 2006
Posts: 257
Location: 20 Courtney Pl., Palm Coast, FL 32137

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:23 am    Post subject: Chinese / Japanese carbine Reply with quote

We are unsure of the correct designation for these carbines. The best descriptive label is "North China Type 30 Carbine Copy". It is in 8mm Mauser (7.92x57). Approximately 42,500 were made and, although the maker has not been positively identified, current research is pointing to the North China Engineering Co. Ltd, located in what is now Beijing, while it was under Japanese occupation. We originally thought that they might have been made in Tientsin, but Chinese researchers feel that the Beijing connection is better.

Later, the design was modified more in line with the Type 38/Type 99 action/bolt and the caliber changed to 6.5 mm Japanese (6.5x50SR). These have same logo on top of the receiver, but "North China Type 19" in Japanese (not Chinese) stamped below it. Approximately 43,500 of these later carbines were manufactured.

It seems that you are reluctant to indicate the serial number and I can understand that security concern. However, it is important for my continued study of these carbines to have the serial number as it helps to determine the number produced. This is confusing because these first carbines were made in at least five serial number batches. Could you send me a private message, e-mail me (FCALLAN4647@yahoo.com) or just call me a 386-445-4225? I will keep your name confidential if that is your desire.

Thanks.

Frank
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Francis C. Allan
20Courtney Place
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(386) 445-4225
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gwsiii



Joined: Aug 21 2003
Posts: 2228
Location: Hayden, AL

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:26 am    Post subject: nc 19 Reply with quote

Oh yes, very nice! That's what it is! Please send to Frank Allan, fcallan4647@yahoo.com I have his old email address on the datasheet. I'll have to get it updated. Any History on it? Thanks for your help! Trey
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gwsiii



Joined: Aug 21 2003
Posts: 2228
Location: Hayden, AL

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:54 am    Post subject: updated Reply with quote

NCT19 and NCT30 datasheets updated with proper email address. Sorry for the confusion and a belated 'Welcome to the Forum!'...Thanks for posting. Trey
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Catch22



Joined: Oct 12 2014
Posts: 9
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually don't mind sharing the SN, I just neglected to do so...

I also didn't see the email on the bottom of the fact sheet. I'll fill that out and email it.

It's not in my hands yet, my brother was kind enough to serve as a pick-up service for me since the guy lives a ways from me. As soon as I have it in my hands, I plan on taking it apart and checking the SNs on parts and all.

What's bothering me is that it looks like someone put a new bolt handle on it. I've been kicking around looking at replacing it, but I have no idea what it would take to bring it back to accurate. If there's even a possibility of finding a bolt body and replacing the good parts or if I could find a "close" bolt and replacing the handle/ball in order to make it accurate.


When I bought it, I was under the impression it was a number-matching gun. It appears it's not, but I'm not overly concerned considering I stole the thing (figuratively, not literally). I had the deal done before I realized exactly what it was. All I knew was it was a good price on an Arisaka. Since I've found it it's a bit more than "just" another Arisaka.


Last edited by Catch22 on Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Catch22



Joined: Oct 12 2014
Posts: 9
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: updated Reply with quote

gwsiii wrote:
NCT19 and NCT30 datasheets updated with proper email address. Sorry for the confusion and a belated 'Welcome to the Forum!'...Thanks for posting. Trey


I appreciate it, Trey! I emailed Frank and have no problem responding/emailing/whatever if anyone else has any inquiries. As I understand it, these things are pretty rare and I can certainly appreciate the curiosity about it. I'm curious, as well!

I've only found two sites that even mention this type of rifle, so it appears it's rare enough not much is known about it or obscure enough, one of the two.

My favorite part of owning the milsurp guns is learning about their history. This one doesn't seem to have much for a guy to research to learn, unfortunately. At least not that I'm finding, so far.
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gwsiii



Joined: Aug 21 2003
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Location: Hayden, AL

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:41 pm    Post subject: t30 copy Reply with quote

There are a couple guys around that can cut off and re-attach a bolt handle to the bolt body and dress it up nice. When you know for sure that it has been monkeyed with, some look monkeyed with but aren't, you can contact one of them and see what they think. If you are close to Cleveland MS, one of the gentlemen usually has a get together in February, and if you come to visit him, he'll 'fissit' while you watch and wait.
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Catch22



Joined: Oct 12 2014
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Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: t30 copy Reply with quote

gwsiii wrote:
There are a couple guys around that can cut off and re-attach a bolt handle to the bolt body and dress it up nice. When you know for sure that it has been monkeyed with, some look monkeyed with but aren't, you can contact one of them and see what they think. If you are close to Cleveland MS, one of the gentlemen usually has a get together in February, and if you come to visit him, he'll 'fissit' while you watch and wait.


I appreciate that. I'm going to debate with myself on that. I don't want to do something that's going to hurt the value, be it historical or monetary, without a lot of deep thought on it.

It looks to me like it's been mess with for some reason. From what I've seen of others of these rifles, the base of the bolt handle is square rather than round. It also looks irregular, like someone did it haphazardly.

From what little I've been able to find out, it's not a standard Type 30 bolt, so getting a Type 30 bolt and swapping internals is out. I know where a Type 30 bolt body is, but they look to be a bit different, though I don't know how much different as of yet.

Now, if the handle/ball is the same, there's an option to replace it and find someone that'll do it right. The question at that point will be "is it worth it?" or will it do more harm that good.

I'm not used to having something like this in my possession, it's a bit unnerving. If the value is anywhere near what I've seen speculated, I'm half afraid to even try to shoot it, let alone mess with anything.
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Catch22



Joined: Oct 12 2014
Posts: 9
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I finally got this thing in my hands and was able to get the datasheet sent to Frank.

It's a bit rougher than I thought, but not horrid.

The rifling is nearly worn out, but still there. However, the bore is bright and clean. Someone painted some parts, like the forend end piece, barrel band, magazine floorplate, and the tangs.

The bolt has a piece (I believe one of the extractors) that falls out when the bolt is removed, so I assume something is missing there.

After talking with Frank, I'm not going to attempt firing it. It sounds a bit risky considering the metal production and condition I'm seeing with the bolt missing pieces and all.

I did find that it is matching. The parts match the production number on the bottom of the receiver, as opposed to the last three of the SN like I hear is the case on other Arisakas.

It's tore down at the moment for a good, deep cleaning and oiling of the parts to protect them properly.

I still have no idea on what kind of value this thing has, either monetary or historical. I'm sure it has a historical significance, I just don't know to what degree. It's apparently not something that was used in a major battle like Saipan, Okinawa, etc., but it still has it's own piece of history. Not sure if anyone can help me with either, particularly the latter? I know it's taboo in some groups to ask for a monetary value, and I don't want to do that, but at the same time it's beneficial to know if I need to look at getting in insured or anything.

Thanks for all the help, guys!
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Francis C. Allan



Joined: Oct 04 2006
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Location: 20 Courtney Pl., Palm Coast, FL 32137

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:24 am    Post subject: Price Reply with quote

Dear Mike;

Thanks for the data sheet.

I don't think that people are reluctant to provide you with a value, its just that these are so seldom encountered that there is little info to go. Add the complication of the repaired bolt handle and a missing bolt part and you can understand the inability to make a guesstimate.

Frank
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20Courtney Place
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(386) 445-4225
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Catch22



Joined: Oct 12 2014
Posts: 9
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: Price Reply with quote

Francis C. Allan wrote:
Dear Mike;

Thanks for the data sheet.

I don't think that people are reluctant to provide you with a value, its just that these are so seldom encountered that there is little info to go. Add the complication of the repaired bolt handle and a missing bolt part and you can understand the inability to make a guesstimate.

Frank


I can certainly understand that. It's a bit difficult, but I'm sure you understand the rationale for asking. The only one I saw that's been sold recently went for $207 on one of the gun auction pages, which I have to wonder if it was a result of folks not knowing what it was.

I had one guy thinking $300-400 in current condition, and it's a guy that collects various milsurps and was one of the first to recognize it when I was asking what it was on a Facebook group. At face value, that seems to be realistic.

I'm also trying to figure out the historical value. Talking with you guys in particular, it seems it's a gun that likely never left China during the war, until it got here. While I'm sure it's historic to someone who look at that particular aspect, it's not something like the Pacific Theatre or something that a lot of guys tend to focus on.

Got to love rare birds. LOL

I'll be getting you some pictures today that you requested in our email. The nice thing is that the bore looks a little better than I initially thought after a good cleaning.

Thanks again to all the guys that helped me figure this thing out.
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gwsiii



Joined: Aug 21 2003
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Location: Hayden, AL

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:12 pm    Post subject: carbines Reply with quote

Value is a tough one. Even with the bolt, I'd figure comparable to a normal 30 carbine. Those seem to run $400-$800. If you decided to get rid of it, I might be interested. My interest tends to run with my cash flow. UP and Down and in direct proportion to the disposable availability of funds in my bank account...I'm currently looking for my check book to send Frank a check. I had it last week, danged if I can find it now...
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Catch22



Joined: Oct 12 2014
Posts: 9
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: carbines Reply with quote

gwsiii wrote:
Value is a tough one. Even with the bolt, I'd figure comparable to a normal 30 carbine. Those seem to run $400-$800. If you decided to get rid of it, I might be interested. My interest tends to run with my cash flow. UP and Down and in direct proportion to the disposable availability of funds in my bank account...I'm currently looking for my check book to send Frank a check. I had it last week, danged if I can find it now...


I'll keep you in mind if that day comes. I'm contemplating it, as I have no doubt it could be better appreciated in the right collection. It just doesn't fit mine, other than it being a novelty and something totally different. However, my Japanese interests lie more with those used in the fighting on the Pacific rather than the mainland. I just don't have that link to the Chinese situation, I guess.

I figure at the least, I got it away from folks that have no idea what it is or might do further damage to it.
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Catch22



Joined: Oct 12 2014
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Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I should share the pictures I took and sent to Frank. I thought I had on here, but apparently not.

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Catch22



Joined: Oct 12 2014
Posts: 9
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I moved my pics around in Photobucket and apparently they aren't showing. Here's an attempt to get them back on the thread...























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