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two-piece lower stock mystery

 
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acollector
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:55 pm    Post subject: two-piece lower stock mystery Reply with quote

Here's the deal; this is a Nagoya Series 5 T99. The stock has an annoying habit- whenever I pick up the rifle by grasping anything forward of the mid-stock band (the part that the monopod mounts to), the whole front half of the stock slams forward into the sight block. Also I assume if this rifle were to be fired, the recoil would send the wood sliding forward (or more accurately, it would stay still while the rest of the rifle moved backwards). In most of the reference material I've found online, the stock (except the top handguard) is all one piece.

So, I assumed that this was an intelligent attempt at a duffel bag cut, because if you took out the action, the gun would be short enough to fit in a duffel, but you could put it back together and the mid-stock band would cover the cut.

But if you look at the T99 data sheet (item 17); there are at least two known configurations where the lower stock was in two pieces like mine is.

Also, the cut looks real clean and 'factory' to me.

So; what is going on here? How were the front part of the stocks secured down to prevent movement in the original 2-piece stocks? Note that tightening the mid band down will not secure the front to the back, all it does is clamp down on the front piece harder.

If you want to see pictures check this:

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/surplusrifle/vpost?id=506817

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/view/mb/file?username=surplusrifle&id=57195
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gwsiii



Joined: Aug 21 2003
Posts: 2228
Location: Hayden, AL

PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:31 am    Post subject: Stock Reply with quote

You have a 'barracks cut' stock. The two-piece front stocks are found on rifles with a welded front band, so there is no sliding if you grab forward of the rear band along the barrel. Thanks for posting. Let me know if you have any other questions. Trey
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acollector



Joined: Jul 05 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok so you are saying the gun was separated into the barrel+receiver and stock, then had the stock cut down under the mid band in order to reduce the length? That was a theory I was operating under at first, but I have to say the cut looks 'factory' to me. So much so that I wonder if instead; somehow this gun was dismantled and then got put back together with the incorrect stock?

I've heard of 'duffel bag cut'(*), I assume 'barracks cut' is pretty much the same thing except the soldier had a little more time to do a better job Very Happy

So in the 'real' 2-piece stock configuration, the front band is welded to what (the barrel?)


(*) Actually, I've seen it primarily referring to a rifle with the sholder stock cut off just behind the grip; resulting in a weapon that is still fireable but lacking the shoulder stock....and of course fits in a GI duffel bag.
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gwsiii



Joined: Aug 21 2003
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Location: Hayden, AL

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:36 pm    Post subject: Stock Reply with quote

The rifle would have been taken down into action/barrel assembly, stock and hand guard. The stock would have been cut, underneath the rear band, this configuration would have allowed a smaller box for shipping, or would have fit neatly into a foot locker. The Japanese did not use the 3 piece stock in the 5th series, it was a much later 'innovation' and is found on rifles with short handguards. The front bands on the later guns with the 3 piece stocks are pinned and welded to the barrel. Its possible your stock has been replaced, but a true 3 piece stock would not fit your front band assembly. Trey
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acollector



Joined: Jul 05 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:06 pm    Post subject: more newbie questions Reply with quote

I have lots more questions, I want to learn more about this rifle that's been in my family for 50-some odd years!

-What knob is correct for the gun? Knurled, concentric grooved, horizontal grooved, welded? (I get the feeling the knurled knob would be the earliest type and being a series 5 I guess this rifle is pretty early? Do the 'series' numbers relate to age at all, i.e. series 1 came first, etc...?)

-How do I use the safety? I've seen people refer to the knob that holds the firing pin and spring into the bolt as a "safety knob". I only have a reproduction which fits but seems a little awkward. It cocks and fires, but I don't see a way to turn it or use it as a safety...

-What is the approx date of manufacture for a Nagoya series 5? Is there any way to tell? All I've been able to find online is "sometime between 1939 and 1945"
(reference http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/japanese_markings.html )

-Please see this link for the bayonet markings on the base of the grip.

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/view/mb/file?username=surplusrifle&id=57193

(By the way this is a curved quillion bayonet) I haven't found any sources online that identify the marki on the left (or I can't recognize it). Do you know what it indicates? The bottom of the stock of the rifle has a mark that matches the small mark to the right under the last 2 digits of the serial # on the bayonet. I think this is the "NA" (for Nagoya) inspection mark. The serial(?) number is 190XX. Is this a serial # for the bayonet only? Is it supposed to match the rifle's serial # and manufacturer? There are NO markings on the blade at all, just the butt of the handle...


-The serial # on the receiver is like this:
(series 5 mark) 407XX (Nagoya mark, looks like an upside down figure 8 in a circle) (a small number 3 or maybe a Japanese character?). What is this 'number 3'- an inspection mark?
The bayonet lug has 3 digits that match the last 3 digits of the serial # on the receiver. The bolt says "780" on the extractor and the rectangular part between the handle and the bolt body. "780" is not the last three digits of the gun on the receiver. Would this be considered a matching gun or do the numbers on everything have to match the last 3 numbers of the gun? (Reference this article that talks about 'assembly marks' and says the numbers don't have to match- read the paragraph just above the bibliography)
http://www.gunboards.com/sites/banzai/Rifles/M99InsMark/M99InsMarks.htm#Top_of_M99InspMark

But then this site says they should match (I think I have a bolt that's not matched to the gun)

http://www.gunboards.com/sites/banzai/RifPrimer/FAQ/MatchiNos.htm#Top_matchnos

-Why does my rifle have the 'stacking rod' when others have a real cleaning rod? Would a cleaning rod have been issued with this rifle?

-Is there a good source for original parts aside from eBay? Very Happy The parts I need are sold out at Numrich and Sarco only has reproductions. I'm sure original parts are very expensive but I'm interested to see what's available.

Thanks!
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gwsiii



Joined: Aug 21 2003
Posts: 2228
Location: Hayden, AL

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:56 am    Post subject: 5th series Reply with quote

Your rifle should have a knurled safety. The bolt does not match the rifle. It and all parts should match the last three digits of the serial number on that series. See the 99 datasheet in my signature for more examples of the parts.

Arsenals were assigned production lots in 100k blocks, defined by series marks. Loosely interpreted, the series number is a sort of 'coded' replacement for numbers over 100,000. Thus your rifle could have been numbered 5 407xx.

99 short rifle manufacturers
Nagoya produced 0-12th series, skipping the 9th
Kokura produced 20th-25th series
Toyo Kogyo produced 30th-35th series
Jinsen produced the 40th series
Izawa Jyuko produced 4th and 9th series partial runs
Howa Jyoko produced a portion of the 9th series
Tokyo Juki Kogyo (kokura supervision) produced the 37th series
Tokyo Juki Kogyo (nagoya supervison) produced the 27th series
Mukden produced the 45th series

Safety operates (with bolt closed) push in with the palm of your hand, and rotate clockwise till notch is in the 12 o'clock position (safety on), push in and rotate counter clockwise till notch is in the 11 o'clock position (safety off) bolt should not open with safety on.

Date of manufacture is fuzzy, being a 5 series, closer to late 1942, or 1943. Due to the language barrier, actual arsenal production documents have not been located and translated for any more accuracy of production dates.

Your bayonet is a Nagoya inspected training bayonet, very desirable if the scabbard has the encircled mark stamped on it near the tip. As most training bayonets go for $15-$35, this one, with matching proper scabbard in good condition usually brings $65-$80. Bayonets were not intended to be 'matched' to rifles.

Japan realized they were short on natural resources, shortening the cleaning rods, dropping (or recalling) dust covers, monopods and a/a sights was a way to save steel for other production uses. In most instances, square cleaning rod catch = full length rod, round catch = short stacking rod.

Rick Veal rickveal@charter.net has quite a few original parts. Also see the Restoration/Parts post. Let me know if you need anything else. Trey
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