Japanese Militaria at Castle-Thunder.com

[Garandshtr]

Time for another question.
I'm also struggling with the usage of "Type" for what we american shooters/collectors call "Model." Early on, I read a post or notice or something (that I can't find again, sadly) that indicated the character 'shiksi'(?) could be translated as 'type' in most cases, but in the specialized usage of firearms, would be better translated as 'model.'
I am not trying to make anyone's teeth grind by saying 'model' instead of the much more commonly used 'type,' and I also don't want to be permanently branded a "doofus" either.
What do you guys think? Or is either acceptable and you just translate it when someone says model?

thanks again,
Mark

p.s. Should I run a poll and see how that works?

[Garandshtr]

Also, do you advanced guys read Japanese? Sorry, but I'm at a loss there. Unless I have some Japanese character strings side-by-side (so to speak), they all look like scribbles to me, no offense intended. Very little clue about where character a resembles character b. I just don't have any background to be able to decipher!
Maybe this is the 301 level, Collecting Japanese Militaria - Reading Japanese that is just beyond me at this point.

as always, thanks!
Mark

[gwsiii]

The Type vs. Model is a ongoing argument, suffice to say, either is acceptable and doesn't brand you a doofus, however the scholars leans towards the use of Model. For us uninformed gringos, its more a Type 99 Model of 1939 rifle than a Model 99 year of 1939. Most 'learning' of the language involves counting of stokes in the characters and cross referencing against a table to find the character's designation and then looking up its meaning. I've learned most of the numbers, and can pick out the 'eras' usually (meiji, taisho, showa) and a few other characters. Very few collectors go that far or advance beyond that, but we're getting better. Trey
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I didn't pay to much for that old Arisaka, I just bought it a little bit too soon!

[Garandshtr]

Again, thanks Trey! That makes sense, at least.
My rifle is scheduled to arrive tomorrow, so that's good. Bad part is that it's also my anniversary, so I'll be forced to go out to dinner instead of play with my new toy!
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Still trying to learn what I can, mainly about the Type 99 and Type 38. I have more curiosity than time, and more time than money.

[Edokko]

My take is that the designation of Shiki (式） should not be translated to "model", and should be described as "type" as have been used by collectors for aeons. I have two major reasons per below.

1) Indeed, the word Shiki as a "generic" word can be translated to Type or Model per the conventional dictionary, but in the context of the Japanese military useage as a nomemclature designation, Shiki originally was used to define the "type" of mechanism or "type" of design of the weapon. The initial examples that comes to mind will be Murata-shiki, Nambu-shiki, Mo-shiki (as in Type Mauser), Ma-shiki (as in Type Maxim), and from there expanded into the nomemclature of the year of designation, such as Sampachi-shiki (Type 38 ), or Kyukyu-shiki (Type 99), so from the point of continuation of the military lingo from conception the "year" based nomemclature of Shiki will have to follow the same meaning as it was given initially.

2) The Japanese military used the the word Kata or Gata (型） specifically differenciated from Shiki, and this Kata in the context used have no other translation but Model. For example, many of the aircraft, radio and or measurement devices will have the designation example 1-gata, 2-gata or 4A-gata etc etc folowing their Shiki designation, and that would translate to Model 1, Model 2, Model 4A etc respectively. There is no way that we can translate the Shiki as Model thereby having to translate a nomemclature such as "98-shiki 2-gata radio transmitter" as Model 98 Model 2 transmitter. It will have to be Type 98 Model 2 transmitter. Such is the example where you can see that the two (Shiki vs Kata / Type vs Model) needs to be clearly differenciated and that Shiki has no room to be translated into Model.

Hope this makes sense.

[Garandshtr]

Hey Edokko!
Very useful info there. This seems like the definitive reply thus far. I can certainly see why you would come down on the 'type' side of the fence. I think I'll join you! (How did you get the kanji characters into that text block?)
Hopefully I won't be much of a back-slider, unless there are further replies to tempt me back over!
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Still trying to learn what I can, mainly about the Type 99 and Type 38. I have more curiosity than time, and more time than money.

[03man]

For those of you who do not know, Edokko is Japanese and a serious student and researcher of Japanese arms and weapons. He has read extensivly in the archives in Japan; his analysis and opinion should be considered definitive.

You can download Japanese characters from Microsoft, problem is knowing how to use them!
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03man

[seinen]

[quote="03man"]You can download Japanese characters from Microsoft, problem is knowing how to use them![/quote]

Can you provide step-by-step instructions on how to download?

C/

[Edokko]

03 man, you give me too much credit ! My footsteps are full of abandoned or crash and burned theories !

[gwsiii]

Edokko, thanks for the detailed explanation!
Ah, but it is so much fun composing those theories, the problem is remembering to write them down at 3 am, so you can get back to them later. I and others have come up with the formula to cure the common cold, solving world hunger, world peace, and the missing 21st series Type 38s. Unfortunately, all that got written down was a recipe for 'whirled peas', how to catch a polar bear, and something naughty about the parentage of a fellow BANZAI member. Back to the drawing board. Trey
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Fill out a Japanese Rifle Datasheet.
I didn't pay to much for that old Arisaka, I just bought it a little bit too soon!

[Garandshtr]

I should have said Edokko-san before. Not knowing is the bane of my existence!
Are you located in Japan? If so, I expect collecting actual arms is an impossibility? Or possibly you have a license or something that gives you special privileges?
If my curiosity has stepped over the line, please just ignore it.
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Still trying to learn what I can, mainly about the Type 99 and Type 38. I have more curiosity than time, and more time than money.

[Edokko]

Garandshtr, naw I live in the People's Republic of Kalifornia and so far I have been able to own a pretty good collection of stuff. Although I must say, we are under the threat of a "sterilized" non-gun society under more Democratic rules, especially living close to San Francisco.
One good news in a flood of bad, is that yesterday the appeals court struck down the hand-gun ban law that the good comrade citizens of SF had voted for a few years ago. Good job on the NRA.

Oh, and drop the "san". Edokko is just fine !

[Edokko]

Trey, I need that recipe for "whirled peas".

[Mike Rockhill]

I know it has been popular to overthink the topic and go against the grain. Edokko has the best information on the topic. I also push a simple minded explanation. A model 99 is a lever action rifle made by savage several decades before the type 99. Most often if you go about saying you collect model 99s, people respect you and ask if you have a model 99 in .250-3000??? That would just be wrong. Type 99 it has been for decades and type 99 it should remain... unless you want the undeserved respect
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Fat, Drunk,and Stupid is no way to go through life son.

[Edokko]

Mike,　hehe, I like that, so true, don't want to get my 99s mixed up with a Savage.
Not that I dont like Savage rifles mind you....