Japanese Militaria at Castle-Thunder.com

gwsiii · Joined: Aug 21 2003 Posts: 2240 Location: Hayden, AL

An article in BANZAI this month (Feb 07 #295) indicated that recently some surviving Japanese Veterans, being interviewed for an upcoming book: EyeWitness WWII: Japan by Dan King, mentioned their experiences defacing the Royal Chrysanthemum (Mum) on their rifles.

I have talked to a few American Vets at shows that mentioned the ground/defaced mums on the rifles they 'souvenired out'. One Vet indicated they were allowed into a warehouse to pick up a rifle and bayonet, outside the door was a Japanese worker at a grinder, upon exiting he handed the rifle over, and the mum was ground on the spot. Another Vet indicated that he captured the rifle in the field (38 carbine) after a squad took out the sniper that was using it (they were all sniper rifles back then). When he picked it up, there was a hacked 'X' across the mum.

I have a Type 38 carbine (4th series) that my Grandfather brought back in 1946, the mum on it is hacked all across it.

This isn't a whole lot to go on, but it does seem to confirm that the Japanese were doing some defacing before the war ended, and that the US Occupation Brass, allowed the continuation of the practice, at least immediately after the war.

Here are examples of three mum 'treatments':
Of note on this rifle is that the majority of the 'bashing' missed the mum I classify this one 'Bashed' with Blunt object (bayonet pommel?), rifle is early 6k range 27th series TJK:

Struck with sharp object (Bayonet or Sword blade?) note the verticle slash down the receiver, Rifle is early 4th series 38 carbine with flat butt plate sent back by by Cpl. Robert Gonzalez with bayonet and box .

Struck with sharp object (Bayonet or maybe Wood chisel?) Rifle is late 4th series carbine my Grandad (Walter E. Deneke) brought back after the occupation.

On datasheets, I make a notation of the mum treatment, rather than a Y/N or A/B I indicate S-struck, B-bashed blunt object, G-ground, X-x'd with file or sharp edge, C-chopped with sharp object, that sort of thing. Its something to think about when recording the data on your rifles. I have another true training rifle that appears to have used a mummed 38 receiver that had the mum welded over. I'll try and dig it out and add the photo. Anyone have other comments, pictures, or stories to add?
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Bushido101 · Joined: Feb 11 2006 Posts: 46

I have always thought it very interesting about how they ground,struck or canceled the mum in what ever method used. I have a vet bring back 99 the mum looks like it was beat with a hammer. This is a interesting thread.

gwsiii · Joined: Aug 21 2003 Posts: 2240 Location: Hayden, AL

Here are two more.

This is the 38 trainer I mentioned. It is serial # 7, all features except the top of the receiver are trainer features. I've sent an email to the resident trainer guru. I'll post any observations that he forwards to me.

This is my Nagoya 6th series carbine serial number 2049. It shows signs of being struck/filed/ground, and then? Acid? Maybe a post war restoration attempt to use acid to etch the metal gone wrong? This is one of the oddest mum 'distortions' that I've ever seen.

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gwsiii · Joined: Aug 21 2003 Posts: 2240 Location: Hayden, AL

This is the 'mum' treatment on an early 44 Carbine ( o 10683 ), oddly enough, an early 3 digit carbine ( 0279 )has the same mum treatment. Almost looks 'gouged' out with a sharp curved object. Both carbines show extensive wear on the left side attributed to true cavalry use in China.

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gwsiii · Joined: Aug 21 2003 Posts: 2240 Location: Hayden, AL

Here is an 'M' marked Tokyo Type 38 Long Rifle ( ooo1723009 ).

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drpoulos · Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:26 am Post subject:

Here is a mum that appears to have been peened; possibly by a soldier.
The rifle is a late 5th series Nagoya (94,8XX).

03man · Joined: Jul 30 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Denver, NC

Just a note of info, one of the Banzai members tested 'striking' a mum with a bayonet blade. All that happened was the blade was dented in a semicircle and no damage to the mum or receiver; i.e. the receiver is much harder than a bayonet.

The strikes we see were likely made with a 'cold' chisel, not a bayonet or sword.
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gwsiii · Joined: Aug 21 2003 Posts: 2240 Location: Hayden, AL

Don, we experimented on a couple of trashed 38 and 99 receivers, a shootout or two back, and we got 'good' hack-marks across the mum area with little damage to the blade. We were using an early tokyo bayonet that hadn't been heavily sharpened but was in nra-wretched condition. I can't seem to find the pictures though. We used the 'hack and slash' and whacked the top of the blade with a hammer with similar results. Trey
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03man · Joined: Jul 30 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Denver, NC

Sounds like it depends on the bayonet; i.e. early or whatever?

Will have to do the experiment myself and post results.
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PrimarchBentley · Joined: Feb 01 2008 Posts: 1

Sorry to poke an older thread, but I recently picked up a 31st series Toyo Kogyo Type/Model 99. While the mum is struck, it's done in a way I haven't seen mentioned yet.

Actually, I'm still somewhat curious myself to figure out how it was done, so I thought I'd post it and see what ya'll think...

It looks like some kind of filling with metal, but the surface is oddly, well, smoothed to match the contour...

(and yes, I'll submit a datasheet soon. Smile

This rifle also has an inspection mark I'm not seeing on the datasheet...)

EDIT: It seems strange that the majority of the 'filling' happened on the (in the pic) right side of the mum, more off the mum than on. It also almost looks like there's an impression in the lower-right corner of the fill area. It's partially 'filled,' but the depth appears to match the depth of the mum stamp...

Mike Rockhill · Joined: Jan 09 2006 Posts: 58 Location: SE Pennsylannia

This is known but not considered a "treatment" because it was done stateside in an attempt to hide the "ugly" grind mark. The grind is touched with a welder and filled in then smoothed and usually hit with a cold blue. I guess some couldn't stand seeing the bare metal of a grind.
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gwsiii · Joined: Aug 21 2003 Posts: 2240 Location: Hayden, AL

Here's a good one, Thanks 03man....
Rifle is Tokyo OO 400k....Whacked all to hell. Looks to be some other stuff underneath before the 'treatment'.

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03man · Joined: Jul 30 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Denver, NC

Yes,
that is definitely one thoroughly bashed mum, maybe struck with a sharp pointedchisel to dislodge those pieces of the receiver.

Just to follow up, I have tried striking recievers with two different bayonet blade pieces, and nada, no marks; certainly not the deep strikes we see frequently. I won't try it with a sword, but I suspect a Japanese soldier would not have wanted to ruin his sword to strike a mum either.
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