Japanese Militaria at Castle-Thunder.com

[ph]

Hello everybody.
I'm a Swiss firearms collector. I'm interested in the period from 1850 to 1960.
Japanese firearms are not frequent in Switzerland and it is a good idea to have a forum dedicated to them.

Here are some photos of my Arisaka. I'm trying to understand why it has Siamese markings. The stock is not in good condition and I will try to restore it.

[Francis C. Allan]

Dear ph;

Many thanks for posting the photos of your carbine. Only a very few of these were imported into the U.S. as we had a military weapons ban in place when they were surplused by Thailand.

Markings: On the top of the receiver, forward to rear, are the characters for 91, which indicates Type 91, the carbine's designation, based upon the Buddhist year 2491 or 1948. Immediately below that is the crest of the Royal Thai Naitonal Police. Finally, is the new Thai serial number of 417.

On the side of the receiver are the original Japanese rifle markings. These include the character within a circle that represents the 25th Series. To the right of this is the original rifle's serial number of 22022. To the right of that is the stacked cannon ball logo of th Japanese Kokura Army Arsenal. Between this logo and the bolt stop release housing are two final inspection stamps that appear to be a simple circle and two of the "legs" of the "KO" stamp that is the primary inspection mark of KOkura.

A very brief history of these weapons is that the Thais wanted to supply police and later some army units with U.S. M1 carbines, but their financial state at that time did not allow for their purchase. They did have a large surplus (25,000) of Japanese Type 38 rifles obtained from an earlier barter agreement / trade with Japan dating from 1940. The Royal Thai Arsenal in Bangkok is beleived to have done the conversions, but no historical information has survived in Thailand that I could locate.

As you see the carbines mirror the appearance of the U.S. M1 carbines even to the point of using the unique sling/oiler combination. At a distance they can easily be mistaken for the the U.S. weapon. It is not known how many were produced, but I have recorded information on serial numbers that reach 2255. So not many appear to have been converted. The polce version like yours all seem to have serial numbers under 1,000, while a slightly modified version was apparently used by the Royal Thai Army. Their serial numbers range from 1139 through 2255 from the information that I have available.

If you need any additional information please let me know. Thanks again for sharing you information which I will add to my data base!

Frank Allan
_________________
Francis C. Allan
20Courtney Place
Palm Coast, FL 32137

(386) 445-4225

[gwsiii]

ph, welcome to the forum, very nice rifle! We don't see many of those over here in the states!

Frank, thanks very much for the detailed explanation! Trey
_________________
Subscribe to BANZAI!
Fill out a Japanese Rifle Datasheet.
I didn't pay to much for that old Arisaka, I just bought it a little bit too soon!

[ph]

Hello Frank,

Thank's a lot for your explanations. Do you need other pictures for your database ?
I still have a few questions :
Did the Thaï modify the caliber of these rifles ? (I think not)
Is it possible to find the oiler for the sling ?
I want to restore the stock : what would be historically right between oiling or varnishing the wood ?
Do you have a good picture of the round mark on the chamber ? Is it something like this :



What type of rifle was it exactly before going to Thaïland ?

Pierre-Henri

[Francis C. Allan]

I see that you found the current version of the police crest. Good for you. It was a little less ornate at the time the carbines were constructed.

The original rifle finish was special lacquer or varnish called Urushi. The color was red / brown and can be copied by a professional stock restoration artisan. I believe that the Thais copied the Japanese finish but they did not achieve the same quality of the Japanese original. Look in the barrel channel and under the receiver portion of the stock for the original color.

The caliber did stay 6.5mm Japanese (6.5 x 50SR) as you suspect. This is a nice intermediate cartridge for a carbine. This is especially true in this case as the Thais did a lot of machining of the barrel to remove weight to keep the carbines light. Note that certain portions of the barrel remain the original thickness to allow for the continued use of the modified Japanese stocks.

Any U.S. carbine sling and oiler would be correct as the Thais apparently obtained many. Additionally, the Thais used any sling available and just shortened them for use on these carbines.

I will try to attach a copy of the crest that I have in my book, but even it is a little different than the one used on the carbines. All examples have the crest poorly stamped, so it is hard to make out the details.

Frank



_________________
Francis C. Allan
20Courtney Place
Palm Coast, FL 32137

(386) 445-4225

[Francis C. Allan]

All examples of the Type 91 carbine have the small crest poorly stamped and very difficult to see. I will attach a picture of another.

An interesting point is that the Royal Thai National Police later did contract with Howa, a Japanese weapons manufacturer, to manufacture a copy of the U.S. M1 carbine specifically for the RTNP. They have a nice crest on their receivers.

Frank


_________________
Francis C. Allan
20Courtney Place
Palm Coast, FL 32137

(386) 445-4225

[ph]

Do you think it would be OK if I use "gomme laque" (gum-lack in english?) to re-varnish the stock ?
We use this product on the stocks of our K31, K11 in Switzerland.
Here is an example of what I did on my K31 :





last question : was my rifle a model 38 ?

thank's

Pierre-Henri

[Francis C. Allan]

Dear Piere-Henri;

Your rifle indeed started life as a Japanese Type 38 Infantry Rifle from the 25th Series of rifles. I forgot to point out that in my discussion.

The color you illustrate is very close to that used by the Japanese. Perhaps a little more dark red.

Frank
_________________
Francis C. Allan
20Courtney Place
Palm Coast, FL 32137

(386) 445-4225

[Mike Rockhill]

I have an original US M1 carbine sling, that I may be interested in trading for the german k98 sling on your rifle. I may have the oiler too, but I doubt it. Original oilers are getting tough to find these days. They do make reproductions though.
_________________
Fat, Drunk,and Stupid is no way to go through life son.

[gwsiii]

I don't think the stock looks that bad, it will clean up with some wd-40 and a soft rag, and will be fine. You can darken up the recent scratches in the wood with old grease, or furniture scratch and dent polish. You'll be surprised how well it will turn out, and the wood condition will more closely match that of the rest of the rifle. Just my 2% of that dollar though. Trey
_________________
Subscribe to BANZAI!
Fill out a Japanese Rifle Datasheet.
I didn't pay to much for that old Arisaka, I just bought it a little bit too soon!

[ph]

[ph]

Now I began working on the stock : I washed it carefully





I found this small piece of wood (a little part is missing)



What was the utility of this piece of wood ?

I also found some markings







Do you know the meaning of these marks ?

And last question : what are the modifications made on the Type 38 by the Siamese ? For instance, did they shorten the barrel ?

[seinen]

The small mark is the katakana character "se", which was a proof mark of the Kokura Arsenal.

C/

[03man]

Looks like you have done more than 'wash' the wood, sanded? steel wool?

You have removed all the historical context! Any original finish is preferable to a refinish.
_________________
03man

[arisakadogs]

Yikes! Why didn't any of you guys say something? This fella stated his intentions to refinish from the first post, and not one of you said a word. I just get home from work and was about to comment on what not to do with the stock & Yikes! Now it's too late.
_________________
"A woman, a dog & and a walnut tree. The more ya beat em, the better they be" (From "The Red Bagde of Courage")