Japanese Militaria at Castle-Thunder.com

[Francis C. Allan]

Dear Smokey;

I am not sure either. I doubt that manufacturing tolerances can be the answer.

Frank
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Francis C. Allan
20Courtney Place
Palm Coast, FL 32137

(386) 445-4225

[gwsiii]

Not sure if this is related, but I've noticed the majority of the early Type 30 carbines are noted as being in 7.62x39. I have an early one serial 549, that at first glance looks to be a larger diameter bore, which I originally attributed to being chambered for 7.62x39, but after closer inspection, its still in 6.5 Japanese, its just the bore at the muzzle appears to be oversized to the point where a 6.5 Japanese round will go in the muzzle all the way to where the case starts. I can't (don't know how) to check anything else, any other way, so I checked all my 6.5s the same way and some of the earliest ones showing the hardest use are like this. I guess its just an even erosion of the inside of the barrel. The bores don't look bad, just appear to be oversized. Not sure if this adds any to the discussion, just an observation on some of rifles that I have. Trey
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I didn't pay to much for that old Arisaka, I just bought it a little bit too soon!

[Smokey]

I'm definitely working with a type-38 chambered and originally bored for the 6.5x50mm cartridge. The "land" diameter is 0.261.
Francis, you mentioned a Type-30 cartridge that used a 161gr bullet and a reduced-charge Type-38 cartridge. I haven't heard about either before.

[Francis C. Allan]

Dear Smokey;

There are actually four 6.5x50SR Japanese "ball" rounds. Here we go:

1) Type 30 - bullet weight 161 gr., RN-CN, 32 gr. powder charge, 2,250 fps from the rifle and 2,090 fps from a carbine

2) Type 38 - 139 gr, P-CN, 33 gr., 2,500 fps and 2,320 fps respectively.

3) Type 38 Modified - 138 gr., P-CN, 33 gr., 2,550 fps and 2,320 fps - the bullet internal shape was changed with more lead weight and a thinner wall at rear, resulting in tumbling on impact and causes more damage. This change took place as early as 1915. Pink neck seal. The 'Modified' label used here is not a Japanese designation, but seems to be the best way to differentiate between these very different rounds. The Japanese simply discontinued production of the Type 38 round in its original form.

4) Type 38 Modified/Reduced Charge - 138 gr., P-CN, 30 gr., 2,360 fps from a rifle, 2,295 fps from a cavalry (short) rifle and 2,235 fps from a carbine. These cartridges have a reduced charge reputedly to reduce the number of jams in the Type 11 LMG, but adopted service-wide as this round proved more accurate. 15-rd. ammo boxes are marked with a circled Englsih captial letter G. This is beleived to represent the first letter in the English translation of Japanese characters of "GEN-SO YAKKO", literally meaning cartridge with "reduced charge". These cartridges also have a pink neck seal are are indistinguishable from the earlier cartridge once removed from the box, other than a very minor weight difference that is difficult to determine due to the wide tolerances that seem to plague Japanese ammunition. This ammunition was introduced in the 1920s or early 1930s.

The 'wide tolerances' is a real problem in determining which of the cartridge variations that are being observed to determine #s 3 and 4 above. It also complicates being this definitive in powder and even bullet weights in all of the above. I have dismantled perhaps 50 cartirdges to come up with the weights above, yet I encountered a wide variation in weights even when I know what cartridge it was by the box label.

I hope this helps and illustrate why there is a wide variation in the reloading data. I have seen a lot of references to loads being equal to the "Japanese Service Round". The obvious question is "which one?"

Someday I hope to do a book on Japanese ammuniton. This was originally planned for right after the THE EARKY ARISAKAS that is now complete and the TYPE 38 ARISAKA, The Japanese Type 38 Family Of Weapons that is now about 90 per cent complete. However, someone just mentioned that Ken Elks was going to update his Japanese Ammunition book after all, which would seem to negate the need for my ammo book, so it is on hold after only the 6.5mm chapter was partilly completed.

Now that I have confused everyone I'll sign off!!!!!

Frank
_________________
Francis C. Allan
20Courtney Place
Palm Coast, FL 32137

(386) 445-4225

[Smokey]

Frank,
Wonderful information. Obviously you've done a lot of work and investigation to be able to supply all this. Much appreciated.

gwsiii,
Thanks for your comments on oversize bores. My rifle with an oversize bore certainly does shoot very well with oversize bullets.

I now have a better understanding of the fine old rifle and greater appreciation for the design and it's real capabilities.
I actually carry my Type-38 around in an area with a large black bear population. The 160gr bullet load that I'm using should be adequate to deal with any problems.